From rod at sunsetsystems.com  Thu Jun 13 19:59:51 2013
From: rod at sunsetsystems.com (Rod Roark)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:59:51 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Test
Message-ID: <51BA8727.2080408@sunsetsystems.com>

Please ignore this.  Just testing a move to new server hardware.

Rod

From darth.borehd at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 11:25:20 2013
From: darth.borehd at gmail.com (Darth Borehd)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 11:25:20 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Why Mac but not LInux?
Message-ID: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>

I see a lot of games that have Mac versions but not LInux versions.  Why?
Wouldn't it be trivial to get the same program to run on Linux as they run
on Mac because they are both POSIX based?

But even if a company is not going to bother with a Linux version, why is
it easier to use WINE to play the Windows version than it is to find a way
to emulate the Mac version?
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From jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us  Thu Jun 27 12:42:33 2013
From: jdnewmil at dcn.davis.CA.us (Jeff Newmiller)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 12:42:33 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Why Mac but not LInux?
In-Reply-To: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <29cad1cf-3326-4ef8-a349-2f400af3eeaf@email.android.com>

The OSX API includes many interfaces that are not POSIX compliant. Mac programmers almost never limit themselves to the POSIX subset of available APIs when writing Mac software. As for why we use Wine more often than emulating OSX APIs, I don't know. You want to write such a beast?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Newmiller                        The     .....       .....  Go Live...
DCN:<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us>        Basics: ##.#.       ##.#.  Live Go...
                                      Live:   OO#.. Dead: OO#..  Playing
Research Engineer (Solar/Batteries            O.O#.       #.O#.  with
/Software/Embedded Controllers)               .OO#.       .OO#.  rocks...1k
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
Sent from my phone. Please excuse my brevity.

Darth Borehd <darth.borehd at gmail.com> wrote:

>I see a lot of games that have Mac versions but not LInux versions. 
>Why?
>Wouldn't it be trivial to get the same program to run on Linux as they
>run
>on Mac because they are both POSIX based?
>
>But even if a company is not going to bother with a Linux version, why
>is
>it easier to use WINE to play the Windows version than it is to find a
>way
>to emulate the Mac version?
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>vox-tech mailing list
>vox-tech at lists.lugod.org
>http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech


From vincenzo.ampolo at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 15:20:24 2013
From: vincenzo.ampolo at gmail.com (Vincenzo Ampolo)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 15:20:24 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Why Mac but not LInux?
In-Reply-To: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51CCBAA8.8020808@gmail.com>

On 06/27/2013 11:25 AM, Darth Borehd wrote:
> I see a lot of games that have Mac versions but not LInux versions.
> Why?  Wouldn't it be trivial to get the same program to run on Linux as
> they run on Mac because they are both POSIX based?

It's not so easy.

glibc (linux) is different from libc (*bds). That is the main problem in 
which the majority of porting problems is.

Plus there is a marketing one: support.

The more platforms you are in, more resources you have to deploy for a 
successful support.

my 2c

best,

>
> But even if a company is not going to bother with a Linux version, why
> is it easier to use WINE to play the Windows version than it is to find
> a way to emulate the Mac version?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> vox-tech mailing list
> vox-tech at lists.lugod.org
> http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
>


-- 
Vincenzo Ampolo
http://goshawknest.wordpress.com/
http://vincenzo-ampolo.net/

From northrupthebandgeek at gmail.com  Thu Jun 27 22:39:16 2013
From: northrupthebandgeek at gmail.com (Ryan Northrup)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2013 22:39:16 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Why Mac but not LInux?
In-Reply-To: <29cad1cf-3326-4ef8-a349-2f400af3eeaf@email.android.com>
References: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<29cad1cf-3326-4ef8-a349-2f400af3eeaf@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CACC_Lu1yF5LGbgR1AGXWAEa79XS=cWp-dU24tYZ9O7x5BTdRWg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 12:42 PM, Jeff Newmiller
<jdnewmil at dcn.davis.ca.us>wrote:
> As for why we use Wine more often than emulating OSX APIs, I don't know.
You want to write such a beast?

Apparently some folks had attempted nearly a decade ago:
http://softpear.sourceforge.net/faq.php.  A preview release is available on
the actual project page's Files section, and the old CVS repository is
still there, too.

I thought I read about another, more recent, SourceForge project to achieve
those means (though with a saner goal of just targeting x86 OS X binaries,
now that PowerPC Macs are unfortunately old - despite my own eMac running
happily with Debian and serving as a testbed for resurrecting Slackintosh).
 Unfortunately, I don't recall the name of that new project.

But yeah, the reason why Wine gets all the development is likely because
Windows-only software is much more abundant than OSX-only software, though
I'd love to be able to run XCode on Linux and not have to fork over the
money for a Mac or deal with the trouble of building a Hackintosh.

As for the original question...

On 06/27/2013 11:25 AM, Darth Borehd wrote:
> I see a lot of games that have Mac versions but not LInux versions.
> Why?  Wouldn't it be trivial to get the same program to run on Linux as
> they run on Mac because they are both POSIX based?

There are several reasons, not limited to the following:

* As Vincenzo mentioned, the differences between glibc and libc
* As Jeff mentioned, the lack of POSIX compliance in most Mac OS X
applications
* Reliance on Cocoa (which GNUStep partially addresses) and, in many cases
(including OS X apps made by Apple) Carbon

That said, I think Valve is shaking this up a bit, now that they're
developing Linux versions of their games (and their Source engine/SDK)
alongside the Windows and OS X versions.  I'm hoping other developers do
the same (my eyes are on you, Bethesda; Fallout 4/5/whatever had better
have a Linux version!).
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From bill at broadley.org  Fri Jun 28 18:48:15 2013
From: bill at broadley.org (Bill Broadley)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2013 18:48:15 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Why Mac but not LInux?
In-Reply-To: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAOmd4aAG38LTsm+2Got+sHMNnAf1LQY4+kvomC_maHkprHPtFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51CE3CDF.9050102@broadley.org>

On 06/27/2013 11:25 AM, Darth Borehd wrote:
> I see a lot of games that have Mac versions but not LInux versions.
> Why?  Wouldn't it be trivial to get the same program to run on Linux as
> they run on Mac because they are both POSIX based?

"Wouldn't it be trivial?", in a word, no.

Take the hardware differences:
* different input devices (keyboards, mice, various grafted on game
   controllers, touch pads, etc.)
* different displays, even multiple screens each with a unique
   resolution
* different video cards, often more than one driver for each major
   type of video card.
* different CPUs, differing clocks, different number of cores, etc.
* different audio hardware (stereo, surround sound, etc)
* basically infinite combination of hardware.  Even the number
   of keyboards is huge.  Can you count on a numeric keypad?  Function
   keys?  Windows key?  Dedicated arrows?

Then the operating system differences:
* zillions of linux distributions
* numerous versions of each
* various user customizations (I started with... replaced the window
   manager ... then disabled pulseaudio...

Different runtime environments:
* various opengl, audio, and UI libraries
* innumerable number of desktop environments (gnome, kde,
   unity, cinmamon)
* often requested full screen functionality... sometimes
   across one monitor, all monitors, or one of N monitors.
* various network configurations (ipv4, ipv6, ipmasq/nat)
* Often crappy graphics drivers, making performance and
   functionality problematic.

Then take all of the above and multiply then together getting a 
nightmare for support.  Thus the attractiveness of a console.

The good news is that steam is working hard on linux, just in the last 
day or so portal and half life 2 came out of beta and their list of 
games is pretty long these days.  Additionally the humble bundles have 
been regularly releasing games for linux and seem to make about as much 
money from linux users as mac.  As a result various small indy game 
developers are targeting linux.

However the humble bundle games tend on average to be:
    A) flash, wine, or java based (relatively portable)
    B) not performance intensive
    C) 2D
    D) not networked.

So I'm hoping that gaming on linux continues to improve.  I'll have to 
see if I can get my old versions of Civilation call to power, Majesty, 
myth II soulblighter, and random other games I bought working on a 
current linux install.

Apparently the new xbox one and ps4 are basically x86 boxes.  I believe 
the ps4 runs a bsd variant.  Lets hope that makes it even easier for 
games to be ported to linux.  Sadly the BSD license means that any 
improvements Sony makes to support gaming do not have to be contributed 
back to the community.







From cylarz at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 29 15:40:28 2013
From: cylarz at yahoo.com (Cylar Z)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [vox-tech] Fedora install question
Message-ID: <1372545628.47881.YahooMailNeo@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Hey all,

Has anyone worked with Fedora 18? I tried installing the GNOME version of it today, and so I downloaded the image, burned it to a DVD and booted from that on the workstation where I want to install it.

After what seemed like a ridiculously long load time, I finally got to the opening screen that says "Fedora 18." I was given the option of logging on as a "Fedora live user" or "other." I picked the first option and it says, "Logged on" but then the computer just sits there. I thought it would then take me to another screen where I'd be offered the option of continuing to run the "live" version or installing the OS to my hard disk, but neither was presented. I checked the manual on the fedoraproject.org website and it says I'm supposed to be offered this option.

I went to "shutdown" and as the computer was preparing to turn itself off, I noticed some red text, possibly including some error messages, but they went by too fast for me to read before the system shut down.

Any suggestions? I was thinking of trying again with the KDE version but was afraid of having the same results.

As an aside, I don't have any particular loyalty to RedHat, other than that I've worked with it in the past and am used to the RPM system for installing packages. I'm still kind of green when it comes to Linux, but I wanted to have a "real" server where I could log in as root and play around with the command line and GUI interfaces. (I'm thinking of becoming Linux+ certified and thought it might benefit me to learn hands-on.) I thought about using Ubuntu instead but it isn't really what I had in mind.

?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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From pksky at finestplanet.com  Sun Jun 30 08:33:14 2013
From: pksky at finestplanet.com (pksky at finestplanet.com)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 08:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [vox-tech] FW:  Fedora install question
Message-ID: <1372606394.871615095@webmail.finestplanet.com>


You might consider that your hardware is to slow to support the version of Fedora you are installing.  Try installing a version more contemporary with the first release of the hardware you are using.
 
Paul Pikowsky
 
-----Original Message-----
From: "Cylar Z" <cylarz at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40pm
To: "vox-tech at lists.lugod.org" <vox-tech at lists.lugod.org>
Subject: [vox-tech] Fedora install question




Hey all,

 
Has anyone worked with Fedora 18? I tried installing the GNOME version of it today, and so I downloaded the image, burned it to a DVD and booted from that on the workstation where I want to install it.

 
After what seemed like a ridiculously long load time, I finally got to the opening screen that says "Fedora 18." I was given the option of logging on as a "Fedora live user" or "other." I picked the first option and it says, "Logged on" but then the computer just sits there. I thought it would then take me to another screen where I'd be offered the option of continuing to run the "live" version or installing the OS to my hard disk, but neither was presented. I checked the manual on the fedoraproject.org website and it says I'm supposed to be offered this option.

 
I went to "shutdown" and as the computer was preparing to turn itself off, I noticed some red text, possibly including some error messages, but they went by too fast for me to read before the system shut down.

 
Any suggestions? I was thinking of trying again with the KDE version but was afraid of having the same results.

 
As an aside, I don't have any particular loyalty to RedHat, other than that I've worked with it in the past and am used to the RPM system for installing packages. I'm still kind of green when it comes to Linux, but I wanted to have a "real" server where I could log in as root and play around with the command line and GUI interfaces. (I'm thinking of becoming Linux+ certified and thought it might benefit me to learn hands-on.) I thought about using Ubuntu instead but it isn't really what I had in mind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Feed the hungry - FOR FREE. Click daily at www.thehungersite.com to give free food to the needy, plus support 8 other worthy causes.


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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From cylarz at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 15:57:43 2013
From: cylarz at yahoo.com (Cylar Z)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 15:57:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [vox-tech] vox-tech Digest, Vol 109, Issue 5
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1372618801.798.vox-tech@lists.lugod.org>
References: <mailman.1.1372618801.798.vox-tech@lists.lugod.org>
Message-ID: <1372633063.77518.YahooMailNeo@web184705.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

It's got an Nvidia 8800 GTX graphics card. That should be more than enough to run GNOME. Handles Windows XP without any problems. Even if that were the problem, it seems like I'd simply get a prominent error message saying that my system doesn't meet the requirements, instead of just sitting there without offering me the install options.


?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Feed the hungry - FOR FREE. Click daily at www.thehungersite.com to give free food to the needy, plus support 8 other worthy causes.



________________________________
 From: "vox-tech-request at lists.lugod.org" <vox-tech-request at lists.lugod.org>
To: vox-tech at lists.lugod.org 
Sent: Sunday, June 30, 2013 12:00 PM
Subject: vox-tech Digest, Vol 109, Issue 5
 

Send vox-tech mailing list submissions to
??? vox-tech at lists.lugod.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
??? http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
??? vox-tech-request at lists.lugod.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
??? vox-tech-owner at lists.lugod.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of vox-tech digest..."


Today's Topics:

?  1. Fedora install question (Cylar Z)
?  2. FW:? Fedora install question (pksky at finestplanet.com)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2013 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: Cylar Z <cylarz at yahoo.com>
Subject: [vox-tech] Fedora install question
To: "vox-tech at lists.lugod.org" <vox-tech at lists.lugod.org>
Message-ID:
??? <1372545628.47881.YahooMailNeo at web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hey all,

Has anyone worked with Fedora 18? I tried installing the GNOME version of it today, and so I downloaded the image, burned it to a DVD and booted from that on the workstation where I want to install it.

After what seemed like a ridiculously long load time, I finally got to the opening screen that says "Fedora 18." I was given the option of logging on as a "Fedora live user" or "other." I picked the first option and it says, "Logged on" but then the computer just sits there. I thought it would then take me to another screen where I'd be offered the option of continuing to run the "live" version or installing the OS to my hard disk, but neither was presented. I checked the manual on the fedoraproject.org website and it says I'm supposed to be offered this option.

I went to "shutdown" and as the computer was preparing to turn itself off, I noticed some red text, possibly including some error messages, but they went by too fast for me to read before the system shut down.

Any suggestions? I was thinking of trying again with the KDE version but was afraid of having the same results.

As an aside, I don't have any particular loyalty to RedHat, other than that I've worked with it in the past and am used to the RPM system for installing packages. I'm still kind of green when it comes to Linux, but I wanted to have a "real" server where I could log in as root and play around with the command line and GUI interfaces. (I'm thinking of becoming Linux+ certified and thought it might benefit me to learn hands-on.) I thought about using Ubuntu instead but it isn't really what I had in mind.

?
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 08:33:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: pksky at finestplanet.com
Subject: [vox-tech] FW:? Fedora install question
To: "lugod's technical discussion forum" <vox-tech at lists.lugod.org>
Message-ID: <1372606394.871615095 at webmail.finestplanet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


You might consider that your hardware is to slow to support the version of Fedora you are installing.? Try installing a version more contemporary with the first release of the hardware you are using.

Paul Pikowsky

-----Original Message-----
From: "Cylar Z" <cylarz at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2013 3:40pm
To: "vox-tech at lists.lugod.org" <vox-tech at lists.lugod.org>
Subject: [vox-tech] Fedora install question




Hey all,


Has anyone worked with Fedora 18? I tried installing the GNOME version of it today, and so I downloaded the image, burned it to a DVD and booted from that on the workstation where I want to install it.


After what seemed like a ridiculously long load time, I finally got to the opening screen that says "Fedora 18." I was given the option of logging on as a "Fedora live user" or "other." I picked the first option and it says, "Logged on" but then the computer just sits there. I thought it would then take me to another screen where I'd be offered the option of continuing to run the "live" version or installing the OS to my hard disk, but neither was presented. I checked the manual on the fedoraproject.org website and it says I'm supposed to be offered this option.


I went to "shutdown" and as the computer was preparing to turn itself off, I noticed some red text, possibly including some error messages, but they went by too fast for me to read before the system shut down.


Any suggestions? I was thinking of trying again with the KDE version but was afraid of having the same results.


As an aside, I don't have any particular loyalty to RedHat, other than that I've worked with it in the past and am used to the RPM system for installing packages. I'm still kind of green when it comes to Linux, but I wanted to have a "real" server where I could log in as root and play around with the command line and GUI interfaces. (I'm thinking of becoming Linux+ certified and thought it might benefit me to learn hands-on.) I thought about using Ubuntu instead but it isn't really what I had in mind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Feed the hungry - FOR FREE. Click daily at www.thehungersite.com to give free food to the needy, plus support 8 other worthy causes.


Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.
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------------------------------

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech


End of vox-tech Digest, Vol 109, Issue 5
****************************************
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From brian at brie.com  Sun Jun 30 19:23:32 2013
From: brian at brie.com (Brian Lavender)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 19:23:32 -0700
Subject: [vox-tech] Fedora install question
In-Reply-To: <1372545628.47881.YahooMailNeo@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1372545628.47881.YahooMailNeo@web184706.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20130701022332.GH21794@brie.com>

I installed Fedora 18 on the Thinkpad X1 Carbon touch. I had to download
the full DVD install image and not use the live image. 

I believe it was the following:
http://mirror.hmc.edu/fedora/linux/releases/18/Fedora/x86_64/iso/Fedora-18-x86_64-DVD.iso

Fedora 19 is coming out in a few days. Remember that Fedora is community 
supported and things are expected to sometimes not to work. The installer
is brand new for 18.

brian

On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 03:40:28PM -0700, Cylar Z wrote:
>    Hey all,
>    Has anyone worked with Fedora 18? I tried installing the GNOME version
>    of it today, and so I downloaded the image, burned it to a DVD and
>    booted from that on the workstation where I want to install it.
>    After what seemed like a ridiculously long load time, I finally got to
>    the opening screen that says "Fedora 18." I was given the option of
>    logging on as a "Fedora live user" or "other." I picked the first
>    option and it says, "Logged on" but then the computer just sits there.
>    I thought it would then take me to another screen where I'd be offered
>    the option of continuing to run the "live" version or installing the OS
>    to my hard disk, but neither was presented. I checked the manual on the
>    fedoraproject.org website and it says I'm supposed to be offered this
>    option.
>    I went to "shutdown" and as the computer was preparing to turn itself
>    off, I noticed some red text, possibly including some error messages,
>    but they went by too fast for me to read before the system shut down.
>    Any suggestions? I was thinking of trying again with the KDE version
>    but was afraid of having the same results.
>    As an aside, I don't have any particular loyalty to RedHat, other than
>    that I've worked with it in the past and am used to the RPM system for
>    installing packages. I'm still kind of green when it comes to Linux,
>    but I wanted to have a "real" server where I could log in as root and
>    play around with the command line and GUI interfaces. (I'm thinking of
>    becoming Linux+ certified and thought it might benefit me to learn
>    hands-on.) I thought about using Ubuntu instead but it isn't really
>    what I had in mind.
> 
>    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>    Feed the hungry - FOR FREE. Click daily at www.thehungersite.com to
>    give free food to the needy, plus support 8 other worthy causes.

> _______________________________________________
> vox-tech mailing list
> vox-tech at lists.lugod.org
> http://lists.lugod.org/mailman/listinfo/vox-tech


-- 
Brian Lavender
http://www.brie.com/brian/

"There are two ways of constructing a software design. One way is to
make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies. And the other
way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies."

Professor C. A. R. Hoare
The 1980 Turing award lecture